Posts by Disillusioned JW

27

What aspects do you view most favorably about the WT and/or its religion?

by Disillusioned JW in

even if you disapprove of much about the wt and/or its religion, what aspects do you view most favorably about the wt and/or its religion?

for me one of the things i view most favorably about the wt and its religion is its extremely strong insistence that jws never intentionally kill another human being.

i especially appreciate that regarding those who have been born, but i think some abortions of human embryos might be justifiable.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze the WT view is not against human governments using the sword to carry out justice (even in the use of capital punishment, though I personally disapprove of capital punishment). The WT view however is against Christians intentionally causing human deaths - even in the carrying out of justice and in protecting their nation from attack by other nations. In contrast though, the WT is in favor of Christ and the 144,000 anointed ones (while in heaven) using deadly force to execute people during the battle of Armageddon.

If Christians join a military however, they run the risk of intentionally killing fellow Christians (even of their own denomination or sect) in warfare - as what happened during the USA civil war, during World Wars I and II, and during many other wars conducted between lands of Christendom. But, according to the Bible Jesus told fellow Christians to love one another (to love fellow Christians) and to not harm each other. Christian clergy [Christendom's clergy] (but not any of Jehovah's Witnesses) on each side of battle fields have told Christians soldiers to kill those on the other side (which included other Christian soldiers). How could such people (claiming to be Christians) be heeding the words attributed to Jesus Christ?

Historians have said that in the early years of Christianity Christians (except maybe for a very tiny percentage of Christians) did not join the Roman armies.

17

"My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

by Diogenesister in

can anyone remember the reasoning the watchtower gave for jesus speaking these words?

if you have a reference that would be even better!.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze in this topic thread you say that God abandoned Jesus, but elsewhere you say (and with stress) that Jesus is God, and you use the traditional translation of John 1:1 as a key element of your proof. It seems to me that the Trinity doctrine is tying you into a knot in this matter. The gospel verse isn't simply claiming that Jesus said that the Father forsook Jesus (nor one personage of a 3-person God), but that God, whom Jesus proclaimed to be his own God (by saying "my God") forsook him.

Even if we for the sake of argument say that the Father and the Son are both God, while maintaining that only one God exists, that would still mean that Jesus was not without God for Jesus would himself be God - even when Jesus died. Yet you say "A just, righteous and holy God has no fellowship with sin. When God made Jesus to actually be sin, he was forced to abandon him so he could die." Was Jesus a righteous and holy God when he died, even though you say Jesus actually became sin? What a quandary the trinity doctrine can cause.

41

Why dont practicing JWS cant accept the fact that the Watchtower Corporation is a commercialized false prophet ?

by Finkelstein in

to the majority of people who investigate the activities of the wts from its beginning history there were obvious false proclamations and doctrines propagated by the wts.. a matter of fact the wts produced a long list of literature that posted proclamations on the front cover and went into detail of things that were suppose to happen, from jesus returning changing the world in which we live and so on.. wonderful things one might say but not factual or either theologically correct .

.

Disillusioned JW

I have to make a slight correction/refinement to what I said in my prior post. It is in regard to the following comment. 'In the back of the WT publications where a price was mentioned for the literature, it did not say "Suggested contribution amount" or similar wording, instead it just said the price (and other times said such was the cost to obtain the literature) and in so doing it gave the impression that one had to pay that price in order to obtain the literature.'

This morning I discovered that two WT books I own use the phrase "a contribution" in reference to the prices of books advertised in the back of the two books.

The book called "Let your Kingdom Come" (Copyright 1981) in the ad for the 1981 edition of the NWT says the following. "You may request your copy of the latest edition of this valuable Bible, sending a contribution of $3.00 (U.S.) toward the printing cost to the appropriate address on page 192. (Price subject to change)". On the next page in the back of the book, four 192-page books are advertised. Regarding those the following is said. "Any one of the above books is available for a contribution of 75c (U.S.). All four for just $3.00 (U.S.). (Prices subject to change)".

The book called True Peace and Security--How Can You Find It? (Copyright 1986) in the ad for the Life--How did it get here? By evolution or by creation? book and in the ad for the You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth book each say the following. "Available for a contribution of $2.50 (U.S.). (Amount subject to change.)"

43

Does this look like the WT is going to be around a long time? One Watchtower @ One Awake for the public in 2022

by pistolpete in

i keep hearing that the watchtower org is going to be around forever because of the many other religions that have been around a long time.

but i disagree because the wt is not like other religious cults.. the watchtower's breath of life is dependent on the last days that started in 1914. .

you can’t change 1914 without a death blow to the entire organization.. the watchtower's 2nd reason for staying alive, is it's continual urging that the life saving preaching work of warning people is the most important work ever.. but- it's very obvious to many, even the old ones that instead of speeding up the work------the work is slowing down to a drip.. comment by former believer; .

Disillusioned JW

I am aware that a number of books written by evangelical Christians, with a figurative axe to grind, have written anti-cult books which classify the JW religion as a cult. They (at least the ones I am aware of) are published by Christian publishing houses instead of by publishers of science books. I have some of them, namely the following.

- The Kingdom Of The Cults - Limited Edition, by Walter Martin

- The Four Major Cults, by Anthony A. Hoekema.

- I have a book written by someone who claims he "was converted to Christianity from the Jehovah's Witnesses in 1950". That person claims to have obtained theological degrees after his conversion and to have served as "Professor of History and Apologetics at The Master's College". His name is Edmond Charles Gruss and his book which I own is The Jehovah's Witnesses and Prophetic Speculation: An Examination and Refutation of the Witnesses' Position on the Second Coming of Christ, Armageddon and the "End of the World" - Second edition. That edition is dated 'December, 1975" and my copy of the book is the "Seventh printing, May, 1983. Gruss apparently considers the JW to be a cult for in "The Author" page the book says: "Interest in the cult field stems from his conversion from the Jehovah's Witnesses in 1950." "The Author" page also says he is "... a member of ... Creation Research Society ..." and thus I think he is a young Earth creationist; and on pages 118-127 he reprints (with permission) pages 474-483 of the young Earth creationist book by Whitecomb and Morris called The Genesis Flood.

- I have the book called Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses, by Ron Rhodes. Chapter one of that book is called "The Watchtower Society: God's Organization or Cultic Tyrant?"

- I also have the book called Understanding Jehovah's Witnesses: Why They Read the Bible the Way They Do, by Robert M. Bowman, Jr. Like the ones above, it is published by a Christian publisher, but I don't notice that book as referring to the JW religion as a cult. In a number of respects it is sympathetic of the JWs. On page 79 (in the chapter called "The Foundation of Jehovah's Witness Beliefs") it says the following.

"A good case can therefore be made that it was this rationalistic approach to religion that was foundational for Russell's own beliefs. His rationalistic desire to comprehend God and his truth led Russell first to abandon faith in the Bible, and then to accept it again on the condition that the Bible be interpreted in keeping with his reasoning.

Evangelicals have frequently pointed out Russell's rationalistic bias against the doctrines of eternal punishment and the Trinity. What is likely to disturb evangelicals, however, is to find that Russell's bias was so much a part of his culture that not even the evangelicals of his day were immune to it. As has been pointed out, some strains of the Calvinistic or Reformed faith in America in Russell's day (and long before him) tended to be rationalistic. The same tendency affected other evangelicals and the general culture at large."

Regarding Charles Taze Russell, Bowman, Jr. on page 80 says: "For him human rationality functioned as an authority over the Bible, dictating what was not possible for God to be and do."

I remember that when I was an active believing JW (and when I was considering becoming baptized as one) one of the things which greatly impressed me about the JW religion was that, to me at least (at the time), it used a rational approach to interpreting the Bible and employed the use of reason. To me it was a religion which primarily appealed to reason, instead of to blind faith and to emotion. However later as a JW I also noticed that the WT literature many times employed faulty logic. But, as a publisher in field service and as a ministerial servant, I tried to make all of my reasoning in support of WT/JW doctrines use sound logical reasoning. In my preaching (from door to door and in talks at the Kingdom Hall) I avoided using the particular lines of reasoning of the WT literature that I thought violated rules of logic. In college (while also a ministerial servant) I also took two introductory philosophy courses in logic and I excelled in those courses.

43

Does this look like the WT is going to be around a long time? One Watchtower @ One Awake for the public in 2022

by pistolpete in

i keep hearing that the watchtower org is going to be around forever because of the many other religions that have been around a long time.

but i disagree because the wt is not like other religious cults.. the watchtower's breath of life is dependent on the last days that started in 1914. .

you can’t change 1914 without a death blow to the entire organization.. the watchtower's 2nd reason for staying alive, is it's continual urging that the life saving preaching work of warning people is the most important work ever.. but- it's very obvious to many, even the old ones that instead of speeding up the work------the work is slowing down to a drip.. comment by former believer; .

Disillusioned JW

The ultimate main reasons why the WT's predictions about the end have not come true are the following; 1) The Bible's predictions (including those attributed to Jesus and Paul) about the apocalypse and the great tribulation (in the sense of post 134 CE) and the return of Christ are false; 2) the Bible has numerous internal contradictions, making it unreliable in many matters and thus making it hard to properly interpret; 3) the Bible is not the inspired of the God, any god, for no personal God/god even exists - and no supernatural Christ and supernatural Satan/Devil exist either.

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/30/982671783/fewer-than-half-of-u-s-adults-belong-to-a-religious-congregation-new-poll-shows might be of interest to some of the readers of this web site.

43

Does this look like the WT is going to be around a long time? One Watchtower @ One Awake for the public in 2022

by pistolpete in

i keep hearing that the watchtower org is going to be around forever because of the many other religions that have been around a long time.

but i disagree because the wt is not like other religious cults.. the watchtower's breath of life is dependent on the last days that started in 1914. .

you can’t change 1914 without a death blow to the entire organization.. the watchtower's 2nd reason for staying alive, is it's continual urging that the life saving preaching work of warning people is the most important work ever.. but- it's very obvious to many, even the old ones that instead of speeding up the work------the work is slowing down to a drip.. comment by former believer; .

Disillusioned JW

I notice that people on this site and others use the word "cult" in reference to the JW religion and other religions, but I never met a person who ever used the word "sect" while talking to me. Further, oftentimes online extreme critics of the the JW religion call the WT/JW religion a cult, but I never read online critics (in my recollection at least) call it a sect. In contrast, college textbooks on the science of sociology, and entries in encyclopedias and dictionaries about he JW religion, never (in any of the copies I have found) call the JW religion a "cult". In contrast, if they mention the religion they almost always call it a "sect" instead.

It seems that the general public is unfamiliar with the word "sect" (or disinterested in using that word) and is predisposed to call various religious groups (ones which they find objectionable) "cults", without even thinking that possibly the word "sect" is a more accurate description. Why is that? Since I go with what scientist and scholars say (especially when it agrees with my experience on the topic) when it is not inconsistent with I know from experience to be true, I consider the JW religion to be a sect and not a cult, though it has some cult-like attributes. A college sociology textbook I own defines "sect" as being a group which has some of those cult-like attributes, yet the book reserves the word "cult" for more extreme groups. That same book explicitly labels the JW religion as a sect.

More specifically regarding the topic of this thread I say the following.

I agree that the 1914 teaching (in some form, including as the end of the times of the gentiles) is a core teaching of the WT (and its JW religion) and it would be extremely problematic for them to discard it. Likewise a core aspect of the religion is apocalypticism, including the idea that we are living in the time of the end and are in the last days, and that people need to be warned about the great tribulation being extremly near. Getting rid of that teaching would also be extremely problematic for them.

Regarding the book study in small homes, rather than it being eliminated, didn't it simply relocate to being inside Kingdom Halls and thus becoming the congregational book study (or congregational Bible study) instead (and being of shorter time duration)?

It does seem to me that the WT's/JW work is greatly slowing down.

Regarding their literature (besides seeing the downsizing of the number of pages of the WT and the Awake!), I notice that though they have the main scriptural text of the Kingdom Interlinear, Byington's Bible in Living English, the KJV, and the ASV are online at the WT's site, the WT's online editions exclude much of the content of those books. For example they exclude all of the footnotes, alternate readings and alternate renderings, prefaces/introductions, and appendices from those books. As a result a person can not read the complete WT editions of any of those books online at the WT's site (even though the WT's site has images which resemble the front covers of each of those books, in association with the links to the text of those books). The WT's online Kingdom Interlinear also excludes the side margin text of the NWT's Christian Greek Scriptures.

Yes figuratively "The waters supplying Babylon are drying up just as the Watchtower foretold" and while that applies to the JW religion (though that was not foretold by the WT) it also applies to Christendom/Christianity in the western world (which was foretold by the WT) - and even more so. For examples, consider the following. A dramatically increasing percentage of the USA population no longer identifies as Christian, or even as having a religion at all (whereas the JWs are still experiencing growth in the USA and especially worldwide, according to their published numbers, at least when I last checked such numbers)! In that regard the USA is now finally beginning to catch up with the rest of the industrialized nations of the western world. Now less than 50% of the USA population over age 18 claims to be Christian (for example see https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx and https://www.npr.org/2021/03/30/982671783/fewer-than-half-of-u-s-adults-belong-to-a-religious-congregation-new-poll-shows). Now even the Southern Baptist Convention (the largest Protestant denomination in the USA) is shrinking in membership numbers in the USA. Lovers of atheism have much to cheer about in regards to such demographics.

27

What aspects do you view most favorably about the WT and/or its religion?

by Disillusioned JW in

even if you disapprove of much about the wt and/or its religion, what aspects do you view most favorably about the wt and/or its religion?

for me one of the things i view most favorably about the wt and its religion is its extremely strong insistence that jws never intentionally kill another human being.

i especially appreciate that regarding those who have been born, but i think some abortions of human embryos might be justifiable.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze and truth-b_known, for many years when I did independent study of the Bible (after ceasing to attend the Kingdom Hall) and later became an independent Christian, I suspected that Romans 13:4 (and the rest of the first part of chapter 13) was spurious (or I at least wondered if it was and I hoped it was). I thought that considering how cruel and evil many of the actions of the Roman government were (such as crucifying Christians).

For another perspective see https://www.jstor.org/stable/1561585 .

41

Why dont practicing JWS cant accept the fact that the Watchtower Corporation is a commercialized false prophet ?

by Finkelstein in

to the majority of people who investigate the activities of the wts from its beginning history there were obvious false proclamations and doctrines propagated by the wts.. a matter of fact the wts produced a long list of literature that posted proclamations on the front cover and went into detail of things that were suppose to happen, from jesus returning changing the world in which we live and so on.. wonderful things one might say but not factual or either theologically correct .

.

Disillusioned JW

truth_b_known, you are right in saying that the WT was getting paid twice for the literature that ended up being distributed in the field ministry (though not in the case of JWs obtaining the literature for their personal use, unless the JWs made an additional contribution to the WT, such as by putting it in the contribution box). I disliked the idea of having the pay twice for the literature distributed in field service. I thought why should I have to pay my own money for the literature since I will be forwarding the money from the householder to the WT. Later when the Kingdom Halls stopped collecting money from the counters, I stopped contributing my own money for the literature I distributed in field service, though I still forwarded the money from the householders to the WT. You also make a good point with your comparison of the pricing with that of for-profit sales of comic magazines.

You are also right about the tendency of the human brain and I realize that I have that tendency also and that I need to resist it. Interestingly, earlier today I was telling strangers (on public transportation) that people, all of us, have a tendency to believe information we strongly want to believe. In the same conversation I also mentioned that it is hard to stay alive. There are so many things we need to know and do to stay alive. [For example, loosing our job and housing, poor eating and drinking habits, not having regular medical check ups, associating with certain kinds of people, and how we react to potentially violent people, all effect how long we will live.]

Rocketman123, you made a good point when you said "The American Constitution availed men to openly and freely propagate their religious expressions without government regulatory control." In the back of the WT publications where a price was mentioned for the literature, it did not say "Suggested contribution amount" or similar wording, instead it just said the price (and other times said such was the cost to obtain the literature) and in so doing it gave the impression that one had to pay that price in order to obtain the literature. Because of the laws at the time, the WT could get away with that practice, including being dishonest about the matter. That practice of the WT combined with the laws (which you wrote about) is now causing me to think that maybe you are right in saying that the WT was literally selling literature. If you are right on that matter, it would mean the WT was dishonest and at times even lying about the matter, and that I was one of the victims of such dishonesty and even outright lying. That is an idea I don't want to accept, due in large part to the unpleasantness about it, but perhaps I should accept that idea. The state of California certainly thought they had a right to charge state sales tax for those kinds of transactions and they won a court case (federal supreme court or state supreme court?) in the matter. That implies that both the court and the state of California thought that literature was being literally sold. Perhaps they were right to think that.

It is interesting how the issue of potentially being charged sales tax and the WT's desire to avoid such tax by not asking for money (especially in specific amounts) specifically for literature distributed, is a major factor in the huge financial problems the WT is now experiencing. Further such financial problems may become a huge factor in a future huge decline in operations of the WT and in the number of JWs.

27

What aspects do you view most favorably about the WT and/or its religion?

by Disillusioned JW in

even if you disapprove of much about the wt and/or its religion, what aspects do you view most favorably about the wt and/or its religion?

for me one of the things i view most favorably about the wt and its religion is its extremely strong insistence that jws never intentionally kill another human being.

i especially appreciate that regarding those who have been born, but i think some abortions of human embryos might be justifiable.

Disillusioned JW

When I wrote fights by the sword instead of lives by the sword, I was going by memory of two Bible verses and was in a hurry to get my message posted before leaving home to go to work. However, I wasn't incorrect (see below where Bible quotes says "take up" and "kills with"), since the word I used convey essentially the same meaning as the word(s) used in Bible verses. Your use of "lives" is in harmony with a Greek drama (see below).

But if someone makes a living by being employed in the military to intentionally kill people, whether by the sword, guns, cannons, bombs, etc., then I think those verses applies them also, not just villains killing for fun, money, or power. I realize that others don't think it applies to those in military service (but what if they were Nazis doing the evil bidding of Hitler?)

There are two verses, one which says "take up the sword" (Matthew 26:52 NASB Updated; NWT 1984 says "take the sword') and one which says "kills with the sword" (Revelation 13:10; NASB Updated; NWT 1984 says "kills with the sword") and I have long thought those to verses convey the same message. The Life Application Study Bible - NASB Updated edition at Matthew 26:52 gives the cross reference to Revelation 13:10. The verse in Matthew 26 is the verse immediately after the verse in which someone with Jesus (which a different gospel account identifies with Peter) used a sword to cut off an ear.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_by_the_sword,_die_by_the_sword . It says in part the following.

' "Live by the sword, die by the sword" is a proverb in the form of a parallel phrase, derived from the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 26, 26:52): "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

... The phrase comes from the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 26, 26:52), in which one of Jesus's disciples is described as having struck the servant of the High Priest of Israel and cut off his ear.[1] Jesus is described as having rebuked him, saying:[2]

... The sayings is sometimes interpreted to mean "those who live by violence will die by violence",[5] which some have interpreted as a call for Christian pacifism [6] or even complete nonviolence, including in self-defense. The passage may also mean that those who use the sword in a criminal, violent, unlawful way will be subject to execution by the sword. This would connect the passage to the statement by St. Paul in Romans 13:4, which uses the same Greek word for sword, "If you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for nothing." This is also in keeping with Genesis 9:6 where God commanded Noah, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."

... A very similar line can be found in the Agamemnon, the first book of the Oresteia trilogy of tragic dramas by the ancient Greek tragedian and playwright Aeschylus.[7][8][9]

...
The line differs across translators and is variously understood as "live by the sword, die by the sword" or "an eye for an eye", emphasizing the irony or appropriateness of the means by which he was killed.'

For context about Matthew 26:51-52 see also Luke 22:36, 38, and 49-51. Verses 49-51 show how Jesus applied his words recorded in Luke 22:36, 38. Such was I was stated in my prior post.

27

What aspects do you view most favorably about the WT and/or its religion?

by Disillusioned JW in

even if you disapprove of much about the wt and/or its religion, what aspects do you view most favorably about the wt and/or its religion?

for me one of the things i view most favorably about the wt and its religion is its extremely strong insistence that jws never intentionally kill another human being.

i especially appreciate that regarding those who have been born, but i think some abortions of human embryos might be justifiable.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze you made a number of good points regarding the position on war, but at least the JWs in Germany and Japan were not in the German and Japan armies. The JWs in those countries were not the enemies of the Allied military forces. Furthermore if you believe the Bible is true, then you believe that people faithful to Jesus and God will receive a resurrection to eternal life.

Regarding Cornelius, we don't know if he remained in active duty in the army after becoming a Christian. Regarding what the Bible says in Luke 22:36 keep in mind what the Bible says Jesus did when an apostle (Peter, a zealot) of Jesus used his sword to cut off the ear of the slave/servant of the high priest. Some people say Jesus used the words said at Luke 22:36 as a teaching example (such as to Peter) to later illustrate (at the time of the ear but cut off and then restored) that one should not use the sword. Keep also in the mind the words attributed to Jesus about he who fights by the sword shall die by the sword. The verses you used could also be used to argue that the Bible is contradictory in its message and thus not the word of God.

The Bible, such as in the book of Revelation, teaches that it is better for Christians to die as martyrs that to kill others (see the passages about the time of the antichrist and the beasts, and of those slain but who later go to heaven to rule with Christ).

Other than the JWs and the SDA (but the SDA might no be fully consistent in this matter0, I don't know of any Christian religion/denomination/sect with more than about 100,000 members worldwide that forbids its members to serve in armed combat. However Buddhism and Jainism are religions which are firmly against the taking of human life, even if it means that the their own members will be killed and tortured as a result in their present human life.

It takes courage in totalitarian countries (such as North Korea) to refuse military service, knowing you likely will be tortured and possibly executed as a result.